Wednesday, May 1, 2013

Interview With Charles Grodin


INTERVIEWCharles Grodin


Charles Grodin
By Nathan Rabin May 20, 2009
Charles Grodin seems to have retired from acting permanently. That’s a damned shame, but his intellect appears too restless to be locked down to one profession. In his collaborations with Elaine May (The Heartbreak Kid, Ishtar), his singular Saturday Night Livehosting gig, and his awesomely faux-antagonistic appearances on Johnny Carson’s The Tonight Show and Late Night With David Letterman, Grodin helped perfect the comedy of awkwardness, avoiding conventional comedy rhythms while savoring tension and uncomfortable silences. And he made indelible impressions on moviegoers in Rosemary’s Baby, Catch-22, and 1973’s brilliant The Heartbreak Kid. After turns in Albert Brooks’ prescient satire Reel Life, The Great Muppet Caper, and 1988’s beloved Midnight Run, Grodin all but disappeared from film, but he maintained a high profile by writing memoirs, becoming a columnist, hosting his own talk show on MSNBC, and becoming a commentator on 60 Minutes II. The A.V. Club recently talked with Grodin about his new memoir, How I Got to Be Whoever It Is I Am.
The A.V. Club: How did this latest book come about?
Charles Grodin: I had written—my son teases me about it—I had written other memoirs in the past, and I wanted to write this book, because I’ve come to the point where I started to realize that things were changing, that I was getting different perceptions, and I looked back on everything, starting with being impeached as president of my fifth-grade class. I started to understand more how I got to be whoever it is I am. So I looked at these events of first being impeached—the teacher said for talking incessantly—at age 10. I don’t think I was talking incessantly; I probably was asking too many questions, because that happened again when I was 11, and I was thrown out of Hebrew school because I asked the rabbi what the Hebrew words meant that were on the blackboard. I must have asked too many times, and he resented it and kicked me out. Then I went to another rabbi, which was a better situation.
How I Got To Be Whoever It Is I AmAnd then in high school, in economics class, Mr. Kennedy would throw me out regularly, again, for asking questions. I always got high grades, and I assumed that if I didn’t understand something, other kids wouldn’t either. Since I was also at that time class president, I’d show up in the principal’s office, and he never knew if I’d been thrown out of class, or if I was there to discuss class business. Looking back on all that, I realized that it manifested itself at age 10 and never stopped, this asking questions. So when I got up to New York and began to study acting with Uta Hagen, I dared ask her, “Why are we being asked to carry imaginary suitcases and open imaginary windows?” She deeply resented the questioning, but she didn’t throw me out, she just threatened me for three years and was really abusive.
I, to this day, don’t think there’s anything wrong with those questions. I think they’re good questions. In fact, she dropped those exercises. By the time I got on to Lee Strasberg and people were being asked to take imaginary showers, I chose not to ask anymore. I don’t think he noticed that I never took one. I also never got up onstage, sat on a chair, and tried to fall asleep—that was a relaxation exercise—because I didn’t believe in that, either. I just didn’t say anything. After a short period, he started to look at me and say, “Do what he does.” That was a big affirmation. Lee Strasberg would ask the other students to watch what I was doing. I don’t consider myself a rude person or hostile or anything. These were sincere questions, and there weren’t really good answers, and I think that people should understand that most of the people overwhelmingly who teach acting never made a living as an actor. The people at the Pittsburgh playhouse were just filled with ridicule and abuse, which I’m told is not that unusual in acting class, but they never made a living as actors. It was just nonsense, what they were doing. The good thing was that I was getting up in front of people in classes and doing scenes at a time where I wasn’t going to be hired. 
So by the time I actually auditioned for a Broadway show, I got the part. I was 27, but I was ready. They actually offered me the role right in the middle of the audition. There were people waiting to audition when they offered me the role, and that was a three-speaking-part role with Anthony Quinn and Margaret Leighton, a great British star. I played her son, and that was a standing-room-only hit, and that kind of got me going. Then in the second Broadway show I did, I don’t know what I said, but pretty soon I was included in the conferences between the director and the writer, even though I was a junior member of the company. One of the character actresses in it resented it. She was a friend of mine. She said, “You’re the juvenile in the play. What are you saying to these people?” I told her what I was saying, and she went, “Oh, that’s a good point.” The producer noticed this, and then he offered me a musical Off-Broadway to direct, and I became the co-author and director. So this business of asking questions—not to be rude, but just to get at the answers—is something that has actually served me well, and I realize that now, even though I took a lot of abuse for doing it. 
AVC: In the book, one of your defining characteristics is your relentless curiosity, the unwillingness to accept the status quo.
CG: I really don’t. I don’t accept what people say. I took something to be copied recently, to be enlarged and blown up, and they said it couldn’t be done, and I went somewhere five minutes away, and they did it. I have a doctor on retainer now, because of various experiences where doctors say things that just aren’t true. I went up to Yale and had an MRI, I didn’t even ask why. The ear doctor told my doctor that he wanted to perform surgery on me for a brain tumor, and I didn’t have a brain tumor, I had no tumor of any kind.
So I’m wary of people. I was taken to the hospital for special surgery around 1980 because I couldn’t move. A trainer just totally treated me like I was going for the decathlon. It got me to the point where I couldn’t even stand up. I couldn’t even move in bed. So an ambulance took me, and they were about to perform surgery on me, and as they’re wheeling me down the hall—even though I was completely drugged—I looked up and I asked, “Where are we going?” They said, “We’re going to give you a myelogram.” They inject dye in your system and then they locate where they’re going to operate. I said, “I haven’t agreed to surgery,” and they looked at me like I was nuts and wheeled me back in. The doctor, nice guy, came in and said, “I understand you think you don’t need surgery.” He said it pleasantly, but you know he thought I was nuts. I said, “I feel like since I’ve been in the hospital, my position in traction is different, and I can feel that it’s easing up and getting better.” He stares at me and says, “Let’s see,” and he takes my leg, he starts bending it back toward my chest, expecting me to say “Stop,” and I didn’t. And he bent it back way than he thought would be possible, and I remember his eyes widened, and he said, “Well, I’m always willing to learn.” So I didn’t have back surgery, just because I said, “I think I’m getting better without it.” In other words, I was thinking for myself.
Even though I only played a doctor in Rosemary’s Baby and I’m not a doctor—I played a gynecologist—I just think for myself. Once I went to a doctor and he said, “How many women have you slept with?” I looked at him and said, “What’s the relevance of that question?” And he says to me, “There’s a lot of weird people in your profession.” I said, “There’s a lot of weird people in yourprofession.” It was nonsense. 
AVC: Where do you think this questioning nature comes from? 
CG: I really don’t know. I know that my grandfather was a Talmudic scholar—by the way, his name was Nathan—and was known “for his witty observations on the Torah.” Now there’s a line for you. I wouldn’t even dare read the Torah, let alone attempt a witty observation on the Torah. I think there’s something genetic there, because years later, the grandson—me—is under contract at Johnny Carson, my daughter’s a headlining standup comedian, and my son is funnier than I am, and he’s in the movies at 21. I think a lot of it, it’s just genetic. I don’t even begin to understand it.
AVC: Do you think part of it is a cultural Jewish thing? 
CG: I grew up among a lot of Jewish kids, and… no. There were plenty of them that didn’t say anything.
AVC: I’m thinking of the Passover Seder. So much of it is asking questions. 
CG: Well, I believe in that. I never mean to be disrespectful, and I don’t mean to be a wise guy. I just really am asking those questions. I really say what I’m thinking. I remember the first Beethovenmovie, the director complimented me after a scene and said what he particularly liked about what I did, and I said, “Thank you, but I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t do that, because that will tend to make me self-conscious. I’m not aware of what I’m doing; I’m just trying to be involved in the situation.” He thought I was really nuts. He was a nice guy, but you could see he thought I was crazy because I said that. Just say, “Fine, good, let’s move on.” That’s all I want to hear. If you want me to do something else, then tell me. 
Of course, I’m still like that, filled with questions, and I feel one of the big flaws everywhere, probably since the beginning of time, is that people speak up and say things, and they’re not really right. People holding forth on the stimulus package—I wouldn’t dare do that. I just couldn’t. I don’t know. I have a chapter in the book, “The All Knowing,” and I talk about Dr. Laura Schlesinger. She’s holding forth, giving people life advice. She’s talked to them for a few minutes, and she’s going on and on about what they should do with their lives. What she’s getting from that person is their side of a story. Before I met my wife, I was going with a woman—she was seeing a psychiatrist, and she asked if I would go talk to him. I said okay, so I walked in and he said, “Even though I just met you, I can tell you’re the kind of guy…” and he was completely wrong about everything! He just made no sense atall.
And we’re filled with people like that. They just think they need to hold forth about whatever it is, but they don’t know what they’re talking about, and I don’t like it. I was on Mike Huckabee’s television show, and I appreciated hearing him say in the green room to someone, “I know I don’t know.” And that’s me. I know I don’t know about most things, but I’m trying to find out, so what I do talk about, I do know. For example, I know that the felony murder rule, which I write about in the book, was established hundreds of years ago in Europe. The concept was that if two people went into a bank and one of them killed someone, they’re both guilty of murder, which is something I can agree with. 
My brother, who is an attorney, doesn’t, but I can agree with that. However, all of Europe, Canada, India—every country in the world but America—has now gotten rid of that law because of its unintended consequences. We have three states in America—Kentucky, Hawaii, and Michigan—who have gotten rid of it. Forty-seven states still have it, including Florida, and here’s the most egregious example: Ryan Holle was a teenager who lent his car to his roommate and went to bed. The roommate goes out with others and commits a crime. Ryan Holle, who’s home asleep in bed, is serving life in prison with no chance of parole. When I tell people that story, they say, “The jury just didn’t believe he wasn’t there?” No, the prosecutor didn’t even claim he was there. The prosecutor simply said, “No car, no murder.” That’s the felony murder role. He had no record. He had nothing to do with the crime. He’s serving life with no chance of parole. Out in California, you have Brandon Hein, a teenager involved with a brawl with a bunch of kids. He’s a drunken kid, they’re all drunk, and one kid stabs another to get him off his little brother, and the kid bleeds to death. And Brandon Hein, who had nothing to do with the stabbing—the kid who did it admitted it—was sentenced to life with no chance of parole: a drunken kid in a brawl. That since has been changed to 29 years with a chance of parole. In the meantime, Brandon went in when he was 18. He’ll now be 32. He was drunk and got into a fight with a lot of other kids. That’s the felony murder rule.
So that, I know about. That, I know is wrong. Just as 10 years ago, I knew that there were people in prison in New York because of the Rockefeller drug laws. I took cameras to the prison when I was doing my cable show, and interviewed four women, showed them to the Republican leadership, who agreed with me, showed them to Governor Pataki. Three were granted clemency immediately, the fourth the next year, and shortly after that, they changed the law, because of one of these women’s cases. That, I know about. But it’s not like I’m going to explain the theory of relativity to you. 
AVC: You went away from film for a very, very long time. You were in The Ex in 2006, but that’s the only film you’ve done since 1994.
CG: When my son entered first grade, I didn’t want to travel anymore, so I started my cable show in New York. I did a movie a few years ago really as a personal favor to somebody. There was a whole personal story there I don’t want to go into. Somebody asked me, and I just chose to do it. I didn’t want to. It was a pretty good script when I read it. They re-shot most of it. They changed the story more than… I’ve never seen that in a movie. After a lot of tests of the movie, they were led to make changes, and the movie was in and out of the theaters within a week. So much for test screenings. In the original script we shot, Jason Bateman wasn’t faking that he had to be in a wheelchair. He was actually crippled and in a wheelchair. They have him faking, which makes no sense at all. He’s a good-looking young guy. Why would anybody pretend to be crippled? It made no sense. Jason, when they re-shot it, said, “Why don’t you have me hit by a bus?” So they did. Again, the movie came and went. Some people like it. They see it on DVD. It’s not something I wanted to do. You’re there 12, 14 hours a day. I don’t think the movie really turned out that well. But I did it for a personal reason, and that was that. 
AVC: Was there a lot of improvisation? 
CG: No, not in that movie. 
AVC: Really? There’s one really, really funny moment—
CG: In my case, there might have been. There usually is. 
AVC: The part where you touch a lamp—
CG: Oh yeah, sure, that was improvised. That was good. I became good friends with Jason Bateman from that movie. To make good friends with someone, that’s really something special. He’s actually in New York making a movie now, and is going to come up to my house on Saturday, so that’s a nice thing. 
AVC: It sounds like you don’t miss the business.
CG: No, I don’t miss acting. I don’t even see movies. I don’t see plays. I don’t watch television. I read papers and magazines to prepare myself for the commentaries, but generally if I’m looking at movies, they’re one of four movies which I have the DVDs of, and that would be Waiting For Guffman, A Mighty Wind, Best In Show, and For Your Consideration. I really enjoy Chris Guest and Eugene Levy movies. Those are the best four movies for my taste. 
AVC: And they’re all improvised. There’s a great moment in the book where you meet with Robert Altman and he says—
CG: “I know I should like you, but I don’t.” I probably say in the book why I felt that was. The way I talk to you is the way I talk to everybody. I really don’t look up or down at anyone. The fact that you’re Robert Altman… You’re a director who’s had success. I don’t go by status. I don’t know if this is in the book, but someone thought it was a good idea for the Duchess of Gloucestershire, Queen Elizabeth’s cousin, to meet me. We’re standing alone on a pedestal somewhere at the British Film Institute in New York, and she didn’t know what to say to me. I didn’t really know what to say to her, so I just asked her, “What is the main focus of your life?” I thought that was a perfectly okay question. She looked at me like I was really rude. She really was so shocked. She said, “My family.” And then she said, “I wouldn’t have asked you such a question,” suggesting I was being rude. “What’s the main focus of your life?” I said, “Family and friends,” and the world went on. I didn’t really understand what the problem was. What was so rude about that question? I have no idea.
But people like Altman, and I’m sure there are others, are the same way. Someone arranged for me to meet Attorney General Holder a couple weeks ago in Washington. People had arranged it, they were nervous, was I going to be okay? You know, I’m working with a St. Bernard one minute and then I’m in Washington meeting with the Attorney General about the felony murder rule. I wasn’t nervous. I just wasn’t nervous. I knew what the questions were. I knew what I wanted to say to him, and we spent an hour together and I left. I knew what I was talking about. But I was quite prepared and I just told him the whole story of what I had to say and he seemed to be receiving it. People say, “How did it go?” I say it always goes well, but in the end you don’t know. Usually nothing happens. 
AVC: You hosted a unique Saturday Night Live where the idea was that you had missed rehearsal and were constantly screwing up. How did that come about?
CG: I just got the idea that that would be funny, that I didn’t know it was live, that I had just come in from New York, and then I say, “This is live?” They asked me to do it again, but I chose not to, because I can do two things: I can learn a script, or I can improvise. But you can’t improvise there, because it’s all done to time, and you can’t learn a script, because they’re changing it, changing it, changing it, so you’re pretty much forced to read teleprompters, and I just didn’t want to do it again. But I liked the part with Paul Simon, who was my musical guest, and I’m up there sitting next to him with a Garfunkel wig on. Then we’re singing the song, and after three or four lines, he looks at me and says, “Chuck, you don’t even know the words!” And I said, “I’m learning them as we’re going, is what I’m doing here.” That was fun.
But I’m quite happy. I do a commentary every day for CBS News Radio, and I wrote a column a week for the New York Daily News website, and I’m generally working on a book, and I have three or four plays, a couple of movie scripts. Then most of my energy and focus is on the justice system, and trying to get rid of this felony murder rule, which I just think is criminal.
AVC: You’re obviously very passionate about it. In the book, it seems like you’re concerned that you’re taken less seriously because you’re an actor.
Charles GrodinCG: I once had a meeting with [former NBC News head Andy Lack], and he’s standing right in front of me telling me how he’s a big fan and how he considers Don Henley of The Eagles his guru. And he tells me that Don Henley watches my show every night, and if he can’t watch it, he tapes it. Then Don Henley said to him, “Did you hear what Charles Grodin said the other night?” And right in front of me, Andy Lack says, “No,” with real disdain, “I’m not watching him.” It’s because of the ego people have that I didn’t spend my life in the news business. They don’t understand that there are people who aren’t in the news business that might have more interesting things to say than they do. Just because you spent your life in the news business doesn’t mean you know anything. I spent most of my life in show business, but I knew much more about social and political things.
Once I was making a movie, and [former studio executive] David Picker really thought the rough cut looked good. I knew David Picker, but I asked “What’s the significance of that, that he thought the rough cut looked good?” And they said, “He runs the studio.” I so don’t know what’s going on in show business. But I always have known much more about social and political issues. I never talked about it in social situations, so my close friend who became one of my producers said, “I was stunned. I’m sitting down at the camera, and there you are talking about anything and everything, and I never heard you say about a word about it.” Because I wouldn’t do that in a social situation. I went to a party recently, and the host said at some point, “I’d like to go around the table and hear what everyone feels about the election.” And I said, “May I use your treadmill?” I didn’t want to do that. I was out for an evening of fun with friends. I didn’t want to turn this into a discussion. It just doesn’t work for me. So I don’t really go out very much, and I don’t talk to that many people.
AVC: In the book, at one point you refer to yourself as a “compassionate conservative.” 
CG: I think that’s probably more accurate, because a lot of my positions are more conservative, although people think I’m really left, left, left. But I’m not. The ACLU shut down a lot of psychiatric institutions many years ago, released a lot of mental patients on the assumption they would show up for counseling and take their own medication. Of course they didn’t. I lived on the Upper West Side of New York at that time, and you’d see these people walking around the street, clearly mentally ill. Now we’ve got mentally ill people confined in our prisons, and they throw their feces at the corrections officers. They’re ill. Then they lock them up in solitary confinement, and suicide is not unusual. This is so wrong. They belong in hospitals. And the corrections officers shouldn’t have to deal with something like that. I think a lot of people are sitting in prison who shouldn’t be. I think a lot of people are being released who are dangerous, and shouldn’t be released. I don’t think we’re on top of this at all. Is that liberal, is that conservative, or is that just common sense? 
AVC: It’s kind of a human issue.
CG: That’s all it is. I directed a Simon and Garfunkel special when I was 34, and the representative of AT&T said I was using their money to sell my ideology. I really had no idea what he meant. I said, “What’s my ideology?” He said, “The humanistic approach.” I said, “You mean there are people against it?” and he said, “You’re damn right there are.” Because the sponsor was AT&T and they didn’t want to sponsor a show that was calling for equal rights for blacks in the South. They felt that would offend some of their Southern affiliates. I think they should be ashamed of themselves. I also think NBC should be ashamed of themselves, because they couldn’t wait to get rid of me and my cable show, because I dared have Robert Kennedy Jr. on talking about General Electric dumping PCBs into the Hudson River. It was legal when they did it, but Robert Kennedy was carrying on about that. They started an effort—and it wasn’t easy, because I was high-rated and always was nominated as Best Show—to get me out of there. So they moved me from 10 p.m. to 11 p.m., and then they moved me to once a week on MSNBC, and then got me out. A writer at New York Newsday said after that, it was all because of Robert Kennedy. I didn’t really know. I was ready to leave it anyway. The daily show was a lot. And then I’d realize, because I’d show up at parties in my area, and saw one MSNBC executive who couldn’t wait to get out of the room when he saw me. The other, oddly enough, was as warm as he could be. So there was obviously a difference of opinion. General Electric is still functioning, even though Robert Kennedy was on my show 10 years ago. They survived it. So what I’m saying is, free speech is more important than anything. 
AVC: In your book, you’re at one point referred to as Simon and Garfunkel’s Svengali. 
CG: They thought I had gotten to know these guys. They had never met Simon and Garfunkel. Nobody tells these guys what to do. They’re very, very strong-minded. They did what I wanted because they agreed with it. Svengali couldn’t be their Svengali, let alone me.
Once again, people were convinced I had some secret agenda. This has happened before, where I’m just asking questions, and people think it’s really something else I’m doing. But it’s not. What you see is what you get, and what I’ve learned over the years is, that’s unusual. If say something, it’s the truth. If I tell you I’m going to do something, I will do it. If I’m going to do something, I’ll be prepared to do it, otherwise I wouldn’t get into that area. But I didn’t know that was unusual. And I think that’s had a lot to do with the success I’ve had, and I didn’t even know what I was doing was unique. But I’m now more aware of it. I was talking to a producer in Los Angeles about a year ago, and I’d never spoken to him. At the end of the conversation, he says, “I’ll call you next week. I have to hear your voice at least once a week.” He never called again. Now, a friend of mine auditioned for a movie shot in Toronto. They went crazy for him. They loved him so much. “See you in Toronto!” He never heard from them. So after that happens for a while, you start to get very wary of everything. Recently, I’ve had lunch locally with two potential backers of plays of mine. I don’t think they wanted to back my plays. I think they just wanted to have lunch with me. That’s my conclusion, because I never heard from them.
AVC: Talking about doing things differently, being unique, you are a singular figure on the talk-show circuit. How did the faux-antagonistic—
CG: That’s a joke. I did that with Johnny Carson starting in ’73, and I do it with David Letterman now. I don’t feel confident enough to go out there just as… You know, we’re just talking right now. I’m not trying to bring you to laughter every two seconds. That’s what they want on those shows. I don’t feel like I can do that. So I just created this persona of this disgruntled guy, and I’m comfortable playing that role. One time on Letterman, I actually brought a vaudeville comic on as my attorney, threatening to sue Letterman for remarks that were made by Carol Burnett and Dabney Coleman on the previous week.
AVC: Were you concerned about alienating audiences? 
CG: I wasn’t, because after my second appearance, Johnny Carson put me under contract. After my sixth appearance, he banned me. So I was under contract and banned regularly, until finally he got comfortable with me. We actually had dinner after he retired, and he wanted me to go on a safari to Africa with him. I chose not to. Sometimes I have to decide whether I want to go downstairs, let alone Africa. I grew up near a zoo in Pittsburgh, so I would hear lions roaring in the night as a child. I’m hardly going to go out where they’re running around free. It’s not my thing. I think I’ll just stay here. 
AVC: In the book, you talk about moving away from the standard sitcom rhythm in your work with Elaine May. 
CG: A lot of people don’t understand that, and they would attack me when I was first on Broadway, like, “I have no idea what he’s doing.” The audience knew what I was doing. The reception was great. I just wasn’t doing setup-punchline-setup-punchline. I was coming at it from the actual character, which would have a different rhythm. And a lot of people just had no idea what I was doing. They’d say, “It’s a comedy, Charlie.” I’d say, “I know.” I was doing what I believed was right. 
AVC: It seems like you’re comfortable being uncomfortable. 
CG: On talk shows. Otherwise, I’m not.
AVC: That seems to be true in your films as well.
CG: That’s different. That’s an acting role. People say, “How did you keep a straight face in that scene where you tore the bar apart in The Woman In Red?” I didn’t even think it was funny. It wasn’t hard for me to keep a straight face. I didn’t find it funny, destroying property to make someone laugh. I’m involved with the character. I thought the character in The Heartbreak Kid was a despicable guy, but I play it with full sincerity. My job isn’t to judge it. If it wasn’t for Elaine May, I probably would never have had that movie career. 
AVC: There’s a story in the book about your experiences with The Graduate.
CG: That keeps coming up, and I talk about it in the book. I was never offered [the lead in] The Graduate. You have to agree to a fee before they do the screen test, and they thought I was going to be difficult, because I said, “You can’t ask someone to star in a big movie and pay them $500 a week.” Of course, that’s what they did in the ’40s, and a lot of these people just died broke. But it had nothing to do with money. It was just the principle. By the next morning, they wanted me to have mastered like 30 pages of dialogue for the screen test. Mike Nichols said, “What do you see as the event of the scene?” I said, “I don’t know the lines, Mike. I can’t possibly do this.” He said, “Let me see you jump up and down on a bed.” I said, “Why would I be jumping up and down on a bed?” “I just want to see you do it.” I said, “Well, anyone can jump up and down on a bed.” 
So he just thought I was going to be a tough customer, which isn’t true. I was actually right. They should not have asked me to screen test giving me 30 pages to memorize the night before. That’s a soap-opera demand. They didn’t do the right thing there. But I didn’t care, because shortly after that, I was directing on Broadway, and then I was in Catch-22, then The Heartbreak Kid. I have very good perspective. I never complain about anything, because I’m aware of what’s going on around me, and I’m also aware that there are a lot of very gifted people that never even get a job in show business. It’s just because they can’t handle the rejection, and I can handle it, and I’m used to it.
AVC: Did a lot of Neil Simon’s script make it into the final film? 
CG: Well, I’m sure it did. In The Heartbreak Kid, [Elaine May] just let me say basically whatever I wanted to say. On the other hand, that was a script written by Neil Simon, who walked out on it early. During rehearsal, she had Jeannie Berlin, her daughter, and I rehearsing songs we would sing on the car going down on her honeymoon, and I remember Neil Simon saying, “Where does it say they sing?” He wasn’t around very much. So there’s a lot of improvisation in that movie. But what I’m confused about—didn’t they have a conversation before they started, to let Neil Simon know Elaine May’s intentions? I found that odd. How would you do that without saying “We’re not gonna say the words as written”? In theater you always do, and certainly we did in Seems Like Old Times, where I’m tapping Robert Guillaume’s shoulder as he plays the piano, and Neil Simon sends someone over and says, “Ask Chuck to stop tapping on his shoulders.” It was so controlling—I didn’t like that kind of thing.
AVC: Being perhaps the most commercially successful playwright alive probably gives him that kind of clout.
CG: It does, and he has every right to do it. I just don’t like to do it that way. I also didn’t know that his wife was dying during the making of The Heartbreak Kid. He’s had a tough time, illnesses of his own, and he’s obviously a brilliant writer. I just see things differently. If it was a Neil Simon play, I wouldn’t—you don’t improvise in the theater.
AVC: As a playwright and screenwriter yourself, are you comfortable with people changing around—
CG: They can do anything they want, but I have the final word. And so does whoever the director is, or the writer. And I encourage people to do whatever they want, and ask me whatever they want. It’s a free exchange, and it’s fine, but somebody has to have the final word.
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Transcript of a Charles Grodin appearance on Letterman in 1997

http://www.oocities.org/davidletterman82/CharlesGrodin1997.html


Charles Grodin Interviewing David Letterman

GRODIN: My sole guest tonight is David Letterman. I have been a guest on David Letterman's show for 15 years, and tonight is the first time he has agreed to appear as a guest on this show,

(Charles mugs for the camera)
even though he has appeared on other shows. I think he's appeared on Larry -- what's Larry's last name?

Off-stage voice: Larry King.
GRODIN: Larry King and Tom -- Tom's last name?
Off-stage voice: Snyder.
GRODIN: Snyder. But tonight he will be my sole guest, and it got me to thinking about all the times over the years that I've been a guest, and when I was the -- the first time I ever appeared as a guest anywhere was on a show -- it was in the mid sixties -- I had directed an off-Broadway musical called -- "Hooray, it's a Glorious Day And All That" was the title, and I appeared on an FM radio show. It was called "Broadway After Dark" and the host was Bobby Maurice, and I went up to Bobby's apartment. It was up in the West 90's, the area that I lived at the time, in his living room. He had a few microphones, and there were three or four of us around this microphone of "Broadway After Dark" with Bobby Maurice, and at the end of the show where it came out that I was promoting this off-Broadway musical, the other guests on the show gave me their pictures and resumes. So I said to Bobby
before I, you know, put my coat on and left, "Bobby, this FM radio show you have here, where is that -- how widely is that heard?" And he said, "What street do you live on?" I said, "I live on West 92nd." He said, "We get as north as West 57th," so I didn't quite get up to my street with Bobby Maurice.

And then later that same year my first television appearance on Joe Franklin, the legendary Joe Franklin television show, and he introduced me. Now, this is an off-Broadway musical that didn't run, and he introduced me as the hottest young director in New York, and for that brief moment I thought I was the hottest young director, you know, they say it to ya, and then I realized that's what Joe did, one of the reasons he was on the air for 40 years.

And then around 1973 I had just opened in my first leading role in that movie, "Heartbreak Kid," and I was going to appear -- the idea was that I should now start to appear on television to help promote the movie, and I was told to expect a call from somebody named Bob Dolce, who was a talent coordinator for Johnny Carson and The Tonight Show. And I was in my apartment in the Upper West Side, and Bob Dolce called, and we chatted for about 20 minutes and had a really good time, at the end of which he said to me, "You're a very interesting guy. I think you would make a very good guest on the Dick Cavett Show. Nice to have talked to you." I put the phone down, and I thought about it a minute, not even realizing that I was auditioning. I hadn't realized
that the whole phone call was an audition. I just didn't know. It was the first kind of pre-interview that I had ever been exposed
to, which we don't do on this show. David Letterman has not been -- not only not been pre-interviewed, but not even told
anything about what I will talk with David Letterman about tonight.

And I called Bob Dolce back, and I said, "Wait a minute. Basically you're saying I shouldn't be a guest on The Tonight Show.
What is it you require to be a guest on The Tonight Show?" he says, "Well, do you have any funny stories?" and I said, "Yeah, I got funny stories. I wasn't aware that when we were talking you wanted" -- and I told him some funny stories, and they flew me out immediately, and I was on The Tonight Show for the first time in 1973, in January of '73, at seven minutes to 1:00. At that time it ran from 11:30 to 1:00, and I followed a medley from Diana Ross and her greatest hits, and it brought the house down,
and I enter at seven minutes to 1:00 following this huge star, Diana Ross, at the time.

And then three weeks later Johnny Carson asked me back, and that time I was on at ten minutes to 1:00. I had been given ten minutes instead of seven. And then the next day I was in my hotel room, and I get a phone call that Johnny Carson wanted to put me under contract, which I was astonished. I didn't know such a thing existed, and the idea would be I would be on every three weeks with Johnny Carson, and I think he had done it once or twice before with Joan Rivers and David Steinberg in all those years.

It was incredibly flattering, and then I went on with Johnny, but very quickly I began to be self-conscious about just having these pre-interviews and telling stories that were arranged and all of that, and I started to do something else. I started to just kind of go
in a different direction, not talk about myself, not talk about promoting anything, but, for example, if I came on and the audience hadn't been that responsive prior to me coming on, I would say to Johnny, "You know, this is not really that great an atmosphere for comedy, and why don't we run a clip of a previous appearance where I, you know, was getting laughs." And Johnny said,
who I've seen and spoken to about this since, because I wrote about this in one of my books, and he took exception to this. He said he didn't ban me, Johnny claims he did not ban me, but I didn't appear with Johnny for like a year at a time, two years at a time, and I appeared with all the other guest hosts.

In fact, at one time they considered having me be a guest host, but they thought I was maybe too strange to be a guest host and that kind of -- that idea went away. And then at some point Johnny told me this. I don't know if it was on camera or off camera. He said, "I never knew what to do with you, and then I realized I could do anything with you," and that opened the door to what I've been doing on talk shows with Johnny Carson from that time on of anything, anything. I could do anything. He would ask me a question, and I would say, "I can't answer that question, because you're not really interested in the answer. All you're interested in is making the money and taking it back home to Malibu." And he said, "You're absolutely right. That's true. I have no interest in your answer." So I started to do that, and a lot of people thought that was kind of weird and strange, and I was difficult, and right around at this time on the scene emerges David Letterman, actually chosen by Johnny Carson to be the person following Johnny Carson on NBC.

So by the time I first started to appear on David Letterman 15 years ago, this is what I was doing. It developed with the relationship with Johnny Carson. So let's run a clip, Bridgett, of the type of stuff that I immediately started to do. This is a little montage of what I started to do, just create conflict problems is what I did, because I didn't want to promote or talk about myself. I thought, I mean, who cares really, but this is what I did, if you will, with David Letterman over the years. This is a conflict montage, if you would, Bridgett.
(Start clip)
LETTERMAN: She's like your wife in the film, isn't she?

GRODIN: She is my wife.

LETTERMAN: Yeah, that's good, yeah.

GRODIN: So anyway, that's all true. It's nice out here. It's cool. It's warm back stage, but it's cool out here.

LETTERMAN: Did you leave your medication in the dressing room, Charles?

GRODIN: Do you have any medication?

(That clip ends and another clips begins)
LETTERMAN: You know, you said something very insulting to me, and I let it go right by. That's the kind of guy I am. That's how gracious I am. You said, "I haven't seen your show in four or five months." Well, let me tell you something, pal.

(Grodin and Dave start yelling at each other)

GRODIN: Hey, that was -- wait a minute.

LETTERMAN: Wait a minute.

GRODIN: Wait a minute.

LETTERMAN: No, you wait a minute

GRODIN: No, you wait a minute.

LETTERMAN: No, you wait a minute.

GRODIN: No, you wait a minute.

LETTERMAN: I'm talkin' to you.
(That clip ends and another clip begins)
GRODIN: What started to happen was we began to watch the show, realizing you were grinning, you were grinning and smiling a lot for no understandable reason, and we started -- instead of enjoying it, we started to get edgy, as though we were in the presence of maybe -- you know, I mean this in the nicest possible way --
LETTERMAN: Yeah, right.
GRODIN: Early dementia. I'm sure it's not. But it's really nice to be here.
(Clip ends)
GRODIN: Here is a clip from my -- you know, a lot of people said David Letterman, he's mean, this and that. I never found him that way with me, but here is a clip of my last appearance with David Letterman, if you would, please, Bridgett.

(Start clip)

LETTERMAN: Charles, hey, what the hell are you doing? Charles, get over here, buddy. Come on. This is not cable. We can't waste time.

GRODIN: Is this working? Wait a minute.

LETTERMAN: What's the matter?

GRODIN: You know, a lot of people don't want to come on this show, because they feel that he's not nice or afraid to come on and stuff like that, and I'm not, because I've been coming for many years.

LETTERMAN: You've been a good friend of ours. Thank you very much, Charles.

GRODIN: Yeah, but that's not what you just said when I came on. He said, "Go blank yourself."

LETTERMAN: That's not true.

GRODIN: Yes, he did. That's what he said. He just said, "Go screw yourself." Did you not?

LETTERMAN: No, I didn't say that.

GRODIN: Did you not?

LETTERMAN: No. You're making that up.

GRODIN: I'm asking, did you say it?

LETTERMAN: No, I did not say that. I'm not that kind of man. I'm not profane. I would not have said that, no. I have nothing but the highest respect and regard for you.

GRODIN: Did you not just say, "Go screw yourself," when I walked out here just now?

LETTERMAN: No.

GRODIN: You did not say that?

LETTERMAN: I did not.

GRODIN: I totally misheard that. I'm sorry.

(Clip ends)

GRODIN: I didn't tell him I was gonna do that either. I just let the cameraman know I'd go anywhere, but he didn't know I was gonna do it. Of course, he didn't say it. Now, here is the last clip I want to show. When it first came up, the idea that I might have a talk show, this is what took place, if you would, Bridgett.

(Start clip)

LETTERMAN: You can do everything. You write plays. You write --

GRODIN: I can also host a talk show.

LETTERMAN: Oh, it takes a mighty big man to do that, Charles.

GRODIN: Yes. Well, we'll see.

(That clip ends and another clips begins)

GRODIN: Ever since it's been announced that I'm gonna do my own talk show, I'm coming out later and later on this show, and this is the first time he ever said,

(Grodin says this really loud)

"And tonight, Stupid Pet Tricks," and

(Grodin softly mumbles)

"Charles Grodin."

You know, this didn't happen until they announced I'm doing my own show, and you are the only talk show host that I didn't get a gift from when that was announced. So don't tell me this is a coincidence.

LETTERMAN: Well, I just gave you ten damn dollars. What do you want?

(End clip)

GRODIN: David Letterman has a billboard up on Broadway that says he is no. 3. When he was no. 1, he chose not to have a billboard, and the only reason he is not no. 1 right now is the network that he is on, CBS, doesn't give him enough lead-in power
or else he would be no. 1. If he was on NBC, in my opinion, he would be no. 1, and I am a fan of Jay Leno as well. So tonight
we are going to be talking with David Letterman, a man who has walked among us for 15 years, and we really don't know who David Letterman -- well, he hasn't literally walked among us, because he doesn't leave the house, but we will try to learn tonight who is this enigmatic David Letterman, and we will be joined by David Letterman when we come right back. Be right back.

(Commercials)

GRODIN: David, can I have a sound check in multiples of four, please.

LETTERMAN: 1, 2, 3, 4.

GRODIN: No, no, no. Excuse me, David. Multiples of Four. 4, 8, 12, 16.

LETTERMAN: I'm sorry. I went to a state college. 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 24, 28, 32, 36, 40.

GRODIN: Excellent. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

LETTERMAN: What's that all about?

GRODIN: I want to get a couple of essentials out of the way first.

LETTERMAN: Are you talking to me?

GRODIN: Yes. What is your insurance?

LETTERMAN: My insurance?

GRODIN: Yes.

LETTERMAN: I think it's Allstate or Farmers.

GRODIN: Is it a group plan?

LETTERMAN: Yeah, it's group. It should be. Total package. It's the umbrella package, term, whole life.

GRODIN: All right, all right. And how long since your last television interview, please.

LETTERMAN: It's been a while. It's been a while. I think the last one might have been – good Lord. I don't know. Oh, it might have been Tom.

GRODIN: How long ago?

LETTERMAN: About a year ago.

GRODIN: So it's been a year since you've been interviewed on television?

LETTERMAN: Since my last one, yeah.

GRODIN: And are you taking any medications?

LETTERMAN: No.

GRODIN: No medication whatsoever?

LETTERMAN: No, although here talking to you I feel drowsy.

GRODIN: I'd like to just say a word to the audience, please. Your birthday?

LETTERMAN: 4/12/47.

GRODIN: And your height?

LETTERMAN: Six-two.

GRODIN: Really?

LETTERMAN: Yeah.

GRODIN: Your weight?

LETTERMAN: One seven zero.

GRODIN: Mother's maiden name?

LETTERMAN: Hofert.

GRODIN: I'm sorry.

LETTERMAN: Hofert, H-o-f-e-r-t.

GRODIN: What's the derivation of that?

LETTERMAN: I believe that's -- let's see. What would that be? That would probably be -- I think German.

GRODIN: Any Swiss in there?

LETTERMAN: Might be. Letterman is a Dutch name. My father's ancestors are Dutch.

GRODIN: Excuse me, David, David, please just answer the questions.

LETTERMAN: Okay, I'm sorry.

GRODIN: In case of an emergency, who do we contact?

LETTERMAN: Well, I think the people at CBS, because I'm certain they would be the last to know.

GRODIN: Right. And when did you last eat and what did you eat?

LETTERMAN: You know, this morning I had one of those Power Bar things.

GRODIN: That's all you've eaten today?

LETTERMAN: And some grapefruit juice.

GRODIN: Together?

LETTERMAN: Kind of coincidentally, yes, but not by any grand design. I've been to the dentist today too as well.

GRODIN: For what type of thing?

LETTERMAN: I'm having a filling replaced.

GRODIN: Does your coverage take care of that?

LETTERMAN: That's a cash deal. That's a strictly cash thing.

GRODIN: I see. How many fillings would you, just generally speaking, how many fillings do you think you have?

LETTERMAN: I'd say I probably have a half dozen on the bottom and maybe four on the top.

GRODIN: How many on the top?

LETTERMAN: I'd say four, total maybe of ten, a dozen at the most.

GRODIN: Is that average for a man your age?

LETTERMAN: I don't know. I think it's probably higher. It's certainly higher than I would like, but as you probably know, when you get yourself on one of these schedules, you don't have a lot of time to do the kind of personal maintenance a person might want to.

GRODIN: Have you bathed today?

LETTERMAN: Do I have what?

GRODIN: You have bathed today?

LETTERMAN: Yes, I have.

GRODIN: Is that a shower or a bath?

LETTERMAN: That would be a shower. I find it invigorating as well as relaxing.

GRODIN: And would you describe your feelings as we get ready to begin this interview?

LETTERMAN: I'm saying a silent prayer that -- you know, I was under the impression we were nearly half finished.

GRODIN: All right. We will begin.

LETTERMAN: Oh, that wasn't -- we haven't begun?

GRODIN: No. We have been on, but I haven't gotten -- I just wanted to get some essentials established for the audience.

LETTERMAN: OK.

GRODIN: People don't really know who you are, and I wanted to get that clear.

LETTERMAN: OK, all right. Then I'm ready to go then.

GRODIN: All right. Where were you born, please?

LETTERMAN: Indianapolis, Indiana, St. Vincent's hospital.

GRODIN: What time of day, please?

LETTERMAN: I think it was early morning.

GRODIN: And what is the extraction of Letterman? You said -- is your father --

LETTERMAN: I believe that's Dutch.

GRODIN: Dutch?

LETTERMAN: I think Letterman is a Dutch name.

GRODIN: You think?

LETTERMAN: I believe so. When I was in Holland looking through the phone book, you know, out-call service, that kind of thing, I came across the name Letterman in the white pages there.

GRODIN: Why were you in Holland?

LETTERMAN: I was there years and years ago to see the -- I went to a Formula One race in Belgium at Frankerschompf Spa.

GRODIN: You did?

LETTERMAN: Yeah.

GRODIN: Now, what would you be doing if you weren't doing this?

LETTERMAN: If I weren't talking to you right now?

GRODIN: Yes. What would you be doing normally?

LETTERMAN: I'd be asleep under the house.

GRODIN: Under the house?

LETTERMAN: Under the house.

GRODIN: Is there an area under there you can crawl in?

LETTERMAN: Yeah, the crawl space.

GRODIN: The crawl space in there?

LETTERMAN: Yeah.

GRODIN: And you're comfortable there?

LETTERMAN: Well, it's the only place I find on my property that stops the radio waves invading my brain.

GRODIN: I see, and there's quite a bit of that, isn't there?

LETTERMAN: Oh, you don't need to tell me. I mean, you're no stranger to this.

GRODIN: No, no. And your father's occupation?

LETTERMAN: My father's occupation, he owned a flower shop.

GRODIN: He did?

LETTERMAN: Uh-huh.

GRODIN: And your mother was a homemaker?

LETTERMAN: Yeah, homemaker and also helped out.

GRODIN: At the store?

LETTERMAN: Uh-huh, and was, for a while, was a Keno runner.

GRODIN: What is that, a Keno runner?

LETTERMAN: You know, when you play the Keno, and she comes and picks up your slips, offers you a cocktail.

GRODIN: I see. All right.

LETTERMAN: Explains the game, odds, that sort of thing.

GRODIN: And you have siblings?

LETTERMAN: Yes, I do.

GRODIN: And would you describe their names?

LETTERMAN: I will describe their names, Charles. I'll describe the one name is a little like the name Janice.

GRODIN: A little like the name Janice?

LETTERMAN: Yeah, and I'll describe the other one's name as a little like the name Gretchen.

GRODIN: I see, and you have two sisters, I would take it.

LETTERMAN: I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about siblings. Forgive me. Come on. Let's get going here.

GRODIN: I will in a moment. This is a whole show though. So I want to do some establishing stuff.

LETTERMAN: Right.

GRODIN: Do you miss anyone?

LETTERMAN: Do I miss anyone?

GRODIN: Yes.

LETTERMAN: Yeah, sure, I miss a lot of people.

GRODIN: Do you miss your sisters?

LETTERMAN: Well, I just spent some time with my sister and her family a couple of weeks ago, so I can't really say I miss them, but we had a nice time, you know.

(Dave touches his nose)

GRODIN: What did you just do there with your nose?

LETTERMAN: I think I nervously kind of just pulled at it like that.

GRODIN: Are you nervous?

LETTERMAN: I am uncomfortable.

GRODIN: Why, because you think this isn't going well?

LETTERMAN: No. Well, it's not going at all, so --

GRODIN: Now, many times when I have spoken with you, and you can see I am speaking to you in a different manner than I normally do.

LETTERMAN: You're being stern.

GRODIN: No, I don't think I'm being -- we don't use that name on this show, by the way.

LETTERMAN: Oh, I'm sorry.

GRODIN: But you seem to have a great attraction to the subject of grooming.

LETTERMAN: Yeah.

GRODIN: You referred to my son as well-groomed.

LETTERMAN: Right.

GRODIN: You always use "well-groomed."

LETTERMAN: Right.

GRODIN: Why?

LETTERMAN: Well, I make no apologies for first rate personal hygiene.

GRODIN: Why? Is that something that's important to you?

LETTERMAN: Yeah, yeah.

GRODIN: Do you consider yourself well-groomed?

LETTERMAN: Well, I do what I can. I mean, look what I was given to work with. Consider that.

GRODIN: What constitutes well-groomed? What do you have to do to be well-groomed?

LETTERMAN: Nice freshly scrubbed shiny face.

GRODIN: Yeah.

LETTERMAN: Clean hair.

GRODIN: And what does the word "eponymous" mean?

LETTERMAN: Eponymous, I think I know this from having heard you explain it, I believe it is self-titled, like the Charles Grodin show.

GRODIN: Because I've been reading the research on you, because, to tell you the truth, I didn't know a damn thing about you. It said you had two eponymous shows, and that's why I thought you might know, but you only know that from hearing me describe it.

LETTERMAN: That's right, that's right.

GRODIN: And as a weatherman you said there was hail the size of canned hams. Was there criticism because of that?

LETTERMAN: If we continue this line of questioning, and moreover this tone of this line of questioning, I'm going to have to seek counsel.

GRODIN: No one said you couldn't seek counsel. I thought you had counsel.
Now, were you criticized as kind of an irreverent weatherman? Back in your beginnings now.

LETTERMAN: Probably so. I think that it was -- what passed for irreverence in those days by comparison these days is so mild as to probably have gone nearly unnoticed.

GRODIN: You know, when I look at you -- and now I'm going to be serious for a minute -- I realize you're a guy who's been on television for, I don't know, 15 years with your show, before that you appeared in other things, and yet it is true about you that nobody really has any idea what you are, who you are or what you're like. No one ever sees you. You don't go anywhere.

LETTERMAN: Right.

GRODIN: You have said you don't really want to go anywhere.

LETTERMAN: Right.

GRODIN: Where would you go?

LETTERMAN: Well, you know, as you describe me, or your impression of me to me, it puts me in the mind of another popular figure, Zorro. Nobody really knew much about Zorro. Nobody knew that he was – people suspected that he in fact was Don Diego, but no one knew it for a fact.

GRODIN: Right.

LETTERMAN: No one could prove it except for a small group of confederates who knew it and guarded that secret.

GRODIN: Do you think that's a key to the long run of Zorro and yourself?

LETTERMAN: Uh-huh.

GRODIN: No. I mean, do you deliberately – you don't go anywhere; you're not photographed anywhere; you're not seen anywhere. Is this part of the mystique of -- you're probably dying to get out, but you're thinking if you get out and people get to know you, it's all over?

LETTERMAN: (Dumb guy voice) Mr. Grodin, can I go home now?

GRODIN: Yeah, right, okay, that's good. How much time before we go to the break? We went to the break, right?

LETTERMAN: (Dave scratches his cheek.)

GRODIN: Just one more quick -- what did you just do there?

LETTERMAN: Again, nervously went to my face like that. Just kind of a Marlon Brando, that kind of thing.

GRODIN: Who's there with you right now? Who's off camera?

LETTERMAN: It looks like day laborers that you sent over with the equipment.

GRODIN: Do you have anybody from your staff there?

LETTERMAN: My assistant is here, and we have an engineer. Pete is here.

GRODIN: Is Rob Burnett there?

LETTERMAN: No, sir, he's not.

GRODIN: You don't have to call me "sir." We are going to go to a break, and we'll be right back with David Letterman. Hang with it. It's gonna get worse.

(Commercials)

Man-in-the-Street: I love David Letterman. I think he really totally revolutionized comedy on television. I love his Stupid Pet Tricks.
Woman-in-the-Street: I love you, David Letterman. My boyfriend is 3,000 miles away and you keep me company at night.

Another woman-in-the-street: He's really, really cute, and I just think he's the best late night talk show host there is.

GRODIN: And I used that last one, even though it upset me a great deal when I saw it, I want you to know.

LETTERMAN: Well, it upset me a little bit too, because it's not true, and I appreciate you throwing that in there.

GRODIN: Well, we threw it in there because you won't get any of that from me, and then we're going to go to another break, and when we come back, it's almost over. Give him some Novocain. We'll be right back.

(Commercials)

REGIS PHILBIN (on tape): David, Chuck, so happy to see you two guys together sitting there so comfortably. You know, I get so concerned when I see Chuck on with David on his show. I get nervous. I don't know. I think something's gonna happen any minute, but now to see you two relaxed, you know what? Why don't you make a date and visit each other at each other's home. Break bread together. Drink wine. Have fun. Hang out together and just relax. I love the thought of it, and if you have a chance, invite me along too, OK? Have a great show, guys. You're the best. I love ya both. But remember, she's always watching both of you.

(Regis points to a picture of Kathie Lee)

GRODIN: What really strikes me is how little chemistry we have under these circumstances.

LETTERMAN: Right.

GRODIN: You know, that it's such a -- if I come on and, you know, I'm angry at you when I'm on your show, it seems to work so well, but if I'm like trying to be civil and straight-forward with you, I mean, I can just imagine us doing what Regis said and sitting there saying, "How did this happen?" We're sitting there, and there's a glass of wine that we're sharing, and it's deadly. Why do you think that is?

LETTERMAN: Well, I don't think that it would be. I think that it would be great fun. I think the estrangement we are both feeling now has to do with geographic circumstances.

GRODIN: Oh, you mean that this is the first time I'm with you that we're not together?

LETTERMAN: Yeah, that's right.

GRODIN: Well, the people, the management here couldn't believe that I wasn't going to go over to your office and do this, and I said, "If I go over to Dave's office, there's a lot of people." You'll say, "Why not go to this guy's suite?" I said, "I'm not gonna -- Dick did that, and look what happened. I'm not gonna travel with a crew." So that's why I wouldn't come over there, you know.

LETTERMAN: That's all right. It's your show. I understand perfectly.

GRODIN: But I feel it too. There is a terrible estrangement. I miss the 700 people laughing.

LETTERMAN: I'll tell you what the problem is for me.

GRODIN: Yeah, yeah.

LETTERMAN: Not that it's a problem in any grand sense of the word.

GRODIN: Well, it is a problem. There's a problem.

LETTERMAN: I'll tell you what the problem is for me. I'm still not sure that we have begun the interview. There to me is no empirical data to support this one way or the other.

GRODIN: Well, I mean, what are you looking for? When you knew you were going to do this, what were you looking for from me? When you sit there, would you like to be -- you know, you said that you don't want to talk about what's personal to you. You find that dreary and dull.

LETTERMAN: Right.

GRODIN: And I'm counting on you not doing that.

LETTERMAN: OK, here's what I was looking for.

GRODIN: Yeah.

LETTERMAN: Here's -- having been in broadcasting for a long time --

GRODIN: Yes, sir.

LETTERMAN: -- this is what I was looking for to indicate that the interview was about to begin.

GRODIN: Yes.

LETTERMAN: I was hoping I would hear from you or a technician here in the room something like, "OK, here we go."

GRODIN: And you didn't get that?

LETTERMAN: No, I didn't get that.

GRODIN: It really undercut the whole thing.

LETTERMAN: That's right.

GRODIN: So, I mean, there is a place, and as you know, you and for that matter Regis and I do live in the same proximity. Many people, talk show hosts, Phil Donahue, Don Imus -- I forget. There's a number of people that live right in that little area.

LETTERMAN: Jack Paar.

GRODIN: Jack Paar lives right where we all live.

LETTERMAN: Right.

GRODIN: And you know, at a restaurant that I go to --

LETTERMAN: Dinah Shore, I think, used to have a place up there. Merv has got a place up there.

GRODIN: Well, I'm with Merv every Friday afternoon.

LETTERMAN: Mike Douglas, I think, has got a place up there.

GRODIN: I'm seeing Mike tonight.

LETTERMAN: Uh-huh, right.

GRODIN: Now, there is a small room. There are several small rooms in a restaurant, private rooms in a restaurant that I go to that's very close to my house, and therefore your house, that if you wanted to go there with Regis -- I wouldn't go there alone with you, because this might happen in person, and I couldn't handle that. I'm too tense for that.

LETTERMAN: Right.

GRODIN: I don't mind television, but if Regis were there, you, Regis and me, nobody else, except, of course, a reporter, because why do that if it wasn't going to be a story -- if I have Regis arrange that, would you do it?

LETTERMAN: Yeah. I would do it as kind of like an experiment.

GRODIN: That's what it would be, an experiment. This is kind of an experiment.

LETTERMAN: Well, I'll tell ya what the deal is. I'm so fond of you -- I used to do this with Jack Paar. Hal Gurnee, my beloved director for many, many years, was also Jack Paar's director, and he would arrange almost exactly what you are describing.

GRODIN: But you went to Jack's house.

LETTERMAN: We went to Jack's house. We went to restaurants. You know, we had a series of these engagements where we would dine and chat and so forth.

GRODIN: Right.

LETTERMAN: And I just found it too difficult to not be disappointing to these people that I finally had to kind of pull out of the little social --

GRODIN: What was the expectation that you thought you weren't living up to?

LETTERMAN: It's the same that existed all my life. Whatever it is, it seems to me to be unattainable.

GRODIN: In other words, they expected something from you; you were going to be hilarious and all of that stuff?

LETTERMAN: Charming and witty and debonair.

GRODIN: Who needs it?

LETTERMAN: Yeah. I knew that I couldn't live up to that, because, as you know from spending time with Jack Paar, he's very eloquent, very animated, very colorful when talking about, well, himself, of course. There is no other topic when you're talking with Jack. But he's endlessly entertaining, and, of course, you know all I had -- every now and then I'd say, "Jack, is there any more ketchup?" So I just felt like a dolt.

GRODIN: Jack could talk about world leaders.

LETTERMAN: Right.

GRODIN: And he does. You just probably didn't hear about that.

LETTERMAN: He would talk about world leaders, you know, when they were on his show.

GRODIN: Well, that's right, that's right.

LETTERMAN: And then there was the time they would come to see me and then I said --

GRODIN: But to compare you to Jack socially, you're saying, "Is there any ketchup?" Let's be honest. Let's not knock Jack. You just defined yourself as kind of a schlub.

LETTERMAN: Well, that's what I'm saying. That's the whole point of this. I'm saying I couldn't possibly live up to any expectation, any reasonable expectation.

GRODIN: Well, let me tell you something. I was once at a restaurant, and it was on 72nd and 3rd. I don't know if you remember this. You were with a group of people at one time table, I was with a group of people at another table, and just your presence in that room ruined my evening, because I overheard you say, "Is there any more ketchup?" I thought, "Oh, man. Get me out of
here. This guy is such a depressing thing."

LETTERMAN: Well, there you go, Charles. Then there is no mystery. That's exactly why I don't go out.

GRODIN: I didn't say you and I should go out. I said you and Regis and me, because if you hang out with Regis you're going to get the inside dope on Kathie Lee and what's going on, all that behind-the-scenes stuff that is not heard about on the air, and I know in spite of you shaking your head, you'd love to know what the deal is there.

LETTERMAN: No, no, I have no interest and Regis is like a vet animal that's got the wrong injection. You know what I mean? It's just like, oh, my God, oh, jeez. Well, put him in and let him cool off and don't call the owners. I mean, he's like that. You know that.

GRODIN: Now, when you were in school, in college, you said you went out a lot, but you were drunk all the time then.

LETTERMAN: That's right. Now, the alcohol was the key to overcoming this --

GRODIN: This feeling?

LETTERMAN: -- this shortcoming that I have.

GRODIN: And you’re feeling like, "I'll never live up to what people expect of me when I come in."

LETTERMAN: That's right. That's right. I think many people suffer from this.

GRODIN: Did you stop drinking at some point?

LETTERMAN: Yes, I did.

GRODIN: You totally don't drink?

LETTERMAN: Nothing.

GRODIN: Why?

LETTERMAN: Because I felt it was -- well, for one thing it was controlling my life, and therefore ruining my life.

GRODIN: Well, I don't mean go out and get drunk. You're not capable of having a couple of drinks in an evening?

LETTERMAN: No.

GRODIN: You're not. You think you would do more if you did that?

LETTERMAN: Yes.

GRODIN: You consider yourself therefore an alcoholic?

LETTERMAN: Yes.

GRODIN: Do you consider yourself -- are you a recovering alcoholic?

LETTERMAN: So far, Yes.

GRODIN: How long since you've had a drink?

LETTERMAN: I guess getting near 15 years.

GRODIN: Is that right?

LETTERMAN: Yeah.

GRODIN: So that's why you don't do it?

LETTERMAN: That's it.

GRODIN: And do you inject yourself with anything?

LETTERMAN: No, I don't.

GRODIN: You don't do anything?

LETTERMAN: No.

GRODIN: And yet when you come out on television, you're like so lit up and on fire. Is that just gum?

LETTERMAN: Yeah, it's gum.

GRODIN: Is that it?

LETTERMAN: It's that Dentyne. Have you ever had that Dentyne? Oh, man, does it give you a boost.

GRODIN: But that sustains you through an hour of television?

LETTERMAN: Yeah, it's pretty good stuff.

GRODIN: Because, I mean, you're flying, and I look at you sometimes, and I say, "My God." And it's either -- but you eat some chocolate, don't you?

LETTERMAN: Occasionally I'll have like fruit or chocolate or some coffee, yeah.

GRODIN: So I would say if you were to meet Regis and me, "Just get yourself some fruit and chocolate and coffee."

LETTERMAN: No, it wouldn't go.

GRODIN: And then just sit there.

LETTERMAN: It wouldn't go.

GRODIN: And listen to what Regis has to say.

LETTERMAN: The only possible way you could have that conversation with Regis -- and you know this -- and by the way, I
love Regis, and I think and have said so and am on record as saying for what you and I do and what he is doing, for what we are all trying to do, I think Regis without question is easily the best, hands-down pound for pound the most entertaining personality
on television. You must feel that way.

GRODIN: I agree. I think he's fabulous.

LETTERMAN: Yeah, but to be in a social situation with him, I would only do it if there were some sort of state-licensed official in the room with us and it was divided into like two- or three-minute rounds, so that every two or three minutes someone would come in and settle him down, you know, we would go to neutral corners and maybe refresh a little bit and then come back in. But one straight shot, no, it would be suicidal.

GRODIN: Well, I want to come back to this, because I'm not going to give up on this, because I didn't realize that you wouldn't -- because I understand, I mean, I frankly wouldn't want to see you without at least something, you know, if it's gonna be nothing, I have reservations too, but let's go to a break, come back, and let's revisit this and see what we can do. We'll be right back with David Letterman.

(Commercials)

TONY RANDALL (on tape): What makes David Letterman the success he is is that the guy has absolutely everything, aside from the basic requirement, which is an outsized sense of humor, and the fastest mouth in the world, he's good-looking. It's very important. He has a beautiful body, and he has a wonderful smile, and that gap tooth in the middle turns it from just a handsome smile into a slightly goofy smile. He can get away with anything, as Johnny Carson could, because he has that corn-fed Indiana naiveté little boy thing.

GRODIN: David, I was struck, the other night I was watching your show, and you've always talked about your Top Ten Lists and the Home Office and all this, the Home Office that and the Home Office this, and you got a phone call from the Home Office, and, you know, to tell you the truth I always thought --

LETTERMAN: Al Herman.

GRODIN: Al Herman was his name.

LETTERMAN: Yes.

GRODIN: And I always just assumed The Home Office was a total joke, but I got from that that there actually is a Home Office;
it does provide the show with some material. Is that the case?

LETTERMAN: Yes, absolutely. We get a packet of material, bonded courier, comes in every morning, and with what you get in that package you ought to be able to do a fairly entertaining television program each and every night.

GRODIN: What, are there writers at the home? What is that?

LETTERMAN: I think it's a lot of computer stuff. I think that they are able to with computer modeling -- and believe me, I'm not familiar with the hardware or the software of it -- I just heard the term computer modeling -- they are able to construct a cyber version of a talk show, and then we get the residue of that. The fellow that called the other night, I believe he's new. I have not talked to him before, but I'm happy for any input, and he seemed like a very nice man. So we have a thing where once a year we, you know, fly everybody in and we have a little, you know, reception, kind of a meet-and-greet. So I'm sure I'll meet Mr. Herman then.

GRODIN: Yes. At that point I actually for the first time I didn't even realize -- I thought it was a joke.

LETTERMAN: No, it's a pretty big thing, and we employ out there in Wahoo I think about 1100 people, and so it helps the economy. I think it's a source of pride for them. It's a nice place. It's like one of those industrial plant kind of extended mall sort
of things, low two-story building, plenty of parking, mercury vapor lights. It's nice.

GRODIN: Now, you know, you have said that a lot of the people that come on your show -- and it would be more true of your show than my show or even Regis' show, because with the big audience and the present audience and the viewing audience -- that they don't realize that it is a performance, and they actually literally want to come on and say what they've been doing and what's coming up. Does not anyone warn them that no one really cares about what you've been doing and what's coming up?

LETTERMAN: Yes. I think they are warned. Yeah, they are told straight away. I think they sign some kind of verification that
they understand that I don't care. They know that we have absolutely no interest in them whatsoever.

GRODIN: And yet some people still come out and insist on saying what they've been doing and what's coming out.

LETTERMAN: It's hard to fathom, isn't it? But, yes, that's happened.

GRODIN: It is to me. It is to me. And I got that message after about two appearances on Johnny Carson back in the early ‘70s that that would be, you know, the death knoll, because Johnny just straight out said --

LETTERMAN: Death knoll? Did you say "death knoll"?

GRODIN: Is it knell?

LETTERMAN: I think it's knell, but again I'm not sure.

GRODIN: I'm sorry.

LETTERMAN: Death knoll puts me in the mind of the grassy knoll.

GRODIN: Yeah, it does. Well, we're suffering enough here. We don't have to go to that.

LETTERMAN: But let me just mention one thing that people often ask me, as I am sure they do you, well, who are your favorite guests, and I always go to you, because the dynamic that you bring to the show for me is perfect. You come into the theater and immediately put me on the defensive, and I think the audience also is placed on the defensive, and then we just sort of go from there, and I like that, I mean, it gives the impression that you are prepared, and Lord knows, you're a busy man, you're certainly not prepared.

GRODIN: No.

LETTERMAN: But it creates the impression that you are.

GRODIN: Right.

LETTERMAN: Just with this little adjustment of your attitude, and I love it, and I wish you could be with us, you know, certainly more often than you are.

GRODIN: Now, why is that, Dave? You were very generous, and you sent me a fax after the last appearance, which I appreciated. In fact, it's framed. It's not laminated, but it is framed. Why is it that I'm -- you say you wish I could be on more often. In fact, what the fax said is you wish I could be on every night.

LETTERMAN: Let me cite another example by way of illustrating this point. Donald Trump, Mr. Hoo-Ha Donald Trump -- and
the truth of it is, I don't know Donald Trump, and sort of what I do know of him, I think like everybody else, you kind of resent, because he's wealthy, he's powerful, and he thinks he's good-looking. So, you know, you have three reasons to resent the guy,
and he hasn't been on the show in a long time, and he was booked to be on the program I think after the Miss Junior Cub Scout Pageant or something, and so I was not particularly looking forward to it, just for the reasons I described to you, and, you know, it always depends on what mood you're in. So anyway, here comes Donald Trump, and he's got something wacky going on with his hair, you know, they've done some wind tunnel thing looking to lower that coefficient of drag on his hair. And so he comes in and he sits down, and he's great, he was just great, and I thought, you know, this is funny. He's great, because here's a guy, you can't knock him over. You can't dent him. You can't wrinkle his suit. Undeniably he's doing things. He's got things that he does.
He doesn't care about me, you know, he can live a long happy life without ever being on my show again, and he has no problem telling me that. So there was that -- I don't even know exactly what that was, but it turned out for me, again, to be a great deal
of fun, much in the same way that your visits are for me.

GRODIN: In other words, you find most fun the guests that kind of resent being there or don't need you.

LETTERMAN: I mean, maybe that's part of it, but I do like the idea that here's a guy you can ask him about a million things, because here's a guy who does a million things, you know, and I can ask you about a million things, because you've had a long successful career and life in show business, and you're a lively intelligence, and you're an active human, you know, and that
makes it all much more fun, a great deal easier.

GRODIN: Yes. So anyway, so why don't I come on more than once every three months?

LETTERMAN: I think you probably are busy.

GRODIN: I'm not busy. I'm free.

LETTERMAN: Come on over.

GRODIN: Wait. We're talking about -- I'm asking you, do you want to have dinner with Regis and me? Try it once.

LETTERMAN: Ummm, ummmm, yeah, yeah, OK, that sounds like a lot of fun.

GRODIN: It really does to me too. I didn't know you didn't drink. I really didn't know
that, I mean, because I --

LETTERMAN: See, it's easier to be kind of Mr. Gadfly, right, Mr. Sort Of Like Party, Party When You're Drunk.

GRODIN: What does that mean "gadfly party party"? I'm talking about a private room upstairs in a restaurant with some injections that you've never experienced before. It won't violate your non-drinking pledge.

LETTERMAN: I went to -- a long time ago I went to dinner with Don Rickles, and that was one of the highlights of my life, and pretty much the circumstance you're describing right here. So maybe this is something we can do. I don't think, you know,
before the end of the millennium, because, you know, there's going to be festivities, there's going to be parades, there's going to
be public appearances, there's going to be the big countdown calendar. So I think we'll have to wait until the next century, but,
you know, let's look at it right in there.

GRODIN: Do you talk to Johnny Carson at all?

LETTERMAN: I haven't spoken to Johnny in a year or so, a couple years, I think. I think I talked to him on his birthday, I believe when he turned 70. Is that possible? I'm not sure when that was.

GRODIN: Yeah, yeah, yeah, about two years ago.

LETTERMAN: Yeah.

GRODIN: And did he answer you?

LETTERMAN: We had a little chat. Every now and then we exchange notes. We exchange -- I send him something, you know,
on his birthday each year.

GRODIN: I got -- I don't know whether you've ever gotten this, but I got a residual from him for the Carson Classics tapes that they sell.

LETTERMAN: Right.

GRODIN: I got three actually, two of them for two dollars and something, and one was for three dollars and something, and I
sent him a note and said, "I always like to think I was a tiny part of the success of The Tonight Show. I just hadn't realized how tiny," and he sent me back a note that said that that was a bookkeeping error and that was overpayment. But does he come east,
do you know?

LETTERMAN: I think he was -- I think he comes east on his way to Europe when he goes to Wimbledon, I believe, but I think not much more than that.

GRODIN: When I was with him, he asked if I would be interested in going on a safari with him. Would you be interested in anything like that?

LETTERMAN: No, no, no, I would not.

GRODIN: You would not?

LETTERMAN: No.

GRODIN: Well, what is it -- you know, the question -- beg the question what you said before, you like the guests that attack you. Are you attracted to women that disdain you?

LETTERMAN: I'm sorry. Am I what?

GRODIN: Women that disdain you, that don't think much of you, that don't need you, that don't need to be there, is that the kind of woman that kind of like catches your eye?

LETTERMAN: Yeah, that's interesting. I sort of enjoy that. I mean, like anybody else, every stupid guy in America, every stupid jerky, dopey guy still in the back of his mind thinks under the right circumstances he might have a shot with Julia Roberts, you know, it ain't gonna happen, but it's just guys, you know, it's just dopey guys, you know, hell -- I just -- well, you know, she might -- you never know, she might like, you know, see me on the riding mower or something. You just never know.

GRODIN: Well now, you've had her on your show and you seen to be working at that right there on television.

LETTERMAN: Well, she's pretty nice, and believe me, I don't understand it, but she's been really, really nice to me and to the show.

GRODIN: Has a date ever come out of those appearances with Julia or any other lovely woman?

LETTERMAN: Well, you know for me, and this is the way I'll tell my grandkids the story, you know, for me those appearances are dates with Julia Roberts. That's as good as it's gonna get for me.

GRODIN: That's the best shot at a date.

LETTERMAN: And believe me, I'll die a happy man with that, because I get to -- she comes out, I get to hold her, I get to put my arms around her.

GRODIN: And a kiss too, I think on the lips, right?

LETTERMAN: Right on the lips, yeah. Oh, man.

GRODIN: A hug and a kiss, and after that it's trouble anyway, wouldn't you say?

LETTERMAN: No, well, no, I wouldn't say that. Perhaps your experience suggests trouble but --

GRODIN: Well, you don't pursue it. We've got 30 seconds. Why don't you pursue it past that?

LETTERMAN: She doesn't want me pursuing that. You know, I mean, look at this. Think of it. You're Julia Roberts. It's like, oh, maybe this guy. I don't think so.

GRODIN: Yeah, you're right, you're right. I don't know why I said that. We have come to the end of this.

LETTERMAN: Oh thank you, merciful God.

GRODIN: We thank you very much, and we're going to take out big ads and run this until the millennium.

LETTERMAN: You know, it would have been better if you had just let me know we had begun.

GRODIN: Right. Well, we are going to begin in about 10 seconds.

LETTERMAN: Oh, Charles.

GRODIN: But anyway, thank you, and God bless you and your sweatshirt. Thank you, and I'll be right back with a final word.

(Commercials)

GRODIN: I want to thank David Letterman for appearing tonight, a very interesting guy, a guy that's brought, you know, so much happiness and laughter to so many people for so many years, you kind of wish all the happiness and laughter for him, and I will pursue this idea of getting him with Regis and me and get some laughs for him. So thanks for watching. Good night, everybody. Good night, Mom. I love you.

THE END